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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:00 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
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I want to apologize to Sylvan if i started a bit of miscontentment(if this word exists) by my remarks that were a bit emotive , the only reason i wrote this was i guess to help or stand up for the newbies who sometimes shy away from discussion because they too often see themselves as hobbyists and no more when they compare themselves to the pros. Nn harm intended Sylvan, i'll take it as you meant it to be for more accomplished luthiers.

Regards

Serge


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:20 am 
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I plan to send out any and all guitars I make for the foreseeable future. I am on my third guitar. It just doesn't make sense for me to do it.

This does have me thinking - I could sub out my necks, and bodies too. As long as they are built to my specs right?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:00 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hesh, don't say that your question was stupid, please! Guitars and everything surrounding it is always a subject of passion with passionate participants . Finishing is another passionate and inflammatory or explosive subject if you don't have a explosion proof fan to ventilate everyone's point of view!

I just love this place, moreover, the quality of all the fine people here!

I'm just a spoiled Bear!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:16 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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[QUOTE=John Kinnaird]   But, even Stradavarious farmed out a lot of his violin building to specialists. I doubt he carved many scrolls. [/QUOTE]

There've been good arguments on both sides. John, you're probably correct about Stradivari. Chances are he also had apprentices doing his legendary finishes. However, to look at it from Sylvan's viewpoint, Stradivari most likely TAUGHT his apprentices how to do the work exactly to his specifications. There was no guesswork or lack of knowledge/ability on the part of the builder. On the other hand, I wonder how many luthiers today could properly cut and process a tree; or how many guitarmakers know how to turn an endpin, or calculate proper fret slot locations with just pencil/paper and a set of dividers? Then again, think of all the fine instruments that wouldn't be made if we all had to do all of those things! But still, imagine the justifiable pride of someone who CAN do all of those things AND turn out a superior guitar!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:46 am 
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Well, I just buffed out a nitro finish on my #1 and I can tell you - I wouldn't have it any other way. Of course, I'm a cheapskate, too. My spray rig consisted of a couple of Prevals. But the job wasn't unbearable and, if I do say so myself, it looks pretty doggone good! (Pics coming soon, hopefully.) If you are into production (actually doing this stuff for a living), you know, it may be worthwhile to farm it out so you have a guaranteed good finish and can spend your time building. But for "the rest of us", why not do the finish on your own? I mean - come on - you just built a guitar! One of the most intimidating woodworking projects out there! Why be scared of doing the finish after what you just went through?

Once again, there's certainly no problem with someone wanting to farm this job out for whatever reasons (production, location, health concerns...). But there are plenty of safe finishes out there to negate the last two. And, no, I don't believe that makes you any less of a craftsman. I just wanted - I don't know, the "bragging rights", I guess - of building the whole thing. Tooling/jigging up to raw wood to finished product.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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me thinks i'll definitely go with french polish and exercise me arms than i'll become accomplished one day soon, yeah he said, one day soon!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:33 am 
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Koa
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I recently quit smoking while spraying nitro. Now i guess I should quit smoking the rest of the time.

Al


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:08 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I chew, never smoked. My dad told me "If I ever see you smoking, boy, you'd better be on fire!"

Ron

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:30 am 
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Koa
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    The thought or total process is fine but in practice this has to be decided by economics and skill.   I have made a set of tuners for a guitar as it was based on an 1880's martin and had an unusual spacing like the Sidel tuners.
    I made the dies for stamping the decoration and the hole nine yards. I don't want to do that again. I have cut my own wood and dried it for building. I don't plan on doing that again and I quit smoking too so I don't want to do that again.
    I will do some finishing at some point but for most I will sub as it just make economic sense in my situation. I don't think you have to do all the steps to be a good luthier but you do need to know and understand the processes of all parts of construction.
    I agree with Sylvan's ideals but we can't all do that. I have seen his guitars and he is a fine craftsman. We chatted about this at ASIA and if anyone hasn't met him , he is a nice and knowlegable luthier.
     I love how we can disagree and not be disagreeable here. I hope we can have some gettogethers and finally put faces to names.
    Have fun and rememeber that the strings go on the outside.
John Hall


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:53 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Sylvan helped me over the hump when I was having trouble spraying Nitro. That was wonderful having his expertise available to me when I needed it.

The firestorm is rather a tempest in a teapot. We do all make choices with our guitarmaking to suit our needs. There are many turns in the building where it simply makes sense to buy material or purchase services to assist the production of an otherwise fine bunch of instruments that wouldn't have happenned in the world without YOU.

I vote for YOU, as being the most important part of the process. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go put in my explosion proof fan.

I'm glad to get some already curved abalone red heart today, wouldn't want to do that. Then, I purchased some SAGA martin style truss rods with aluminum housing and steel rod, wouldn't want to do that. Resawing, well yes, I buy some, I cut some, both work.

Kerfed linings. Not yet, I'm a buyer here. Celluloid oh, get that from martin, but I'd love to know how to make Tor-Tis pickguards like Greven so I could do my own. Tuners, don't know a single soul who makes them. And hide glue or titebond, don't have a clue how to make that stuff, but I'd like to visit a factory to see it being done. Or how about a tour of the McFadden factory, imagine the possibilities of smoking a cigarette there! I quit in 1976.

So, I bet this thread goes on, but it doesn't matter. In the end, "We all have to paddle our own canoe."

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:49 am 
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Mahogany
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This topic always makes my wallet nervous


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:15 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:53 am
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Location: United States
First name: Scott
Last Name: Thompson
[QUOTE=Addam Stark] This topic always makes my wallet nervous [/QUOTE]

Just this topic? Guitar building in general should make your wallet nervous!

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:18 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Sorry just joking. I do spray nitro but only outside, and definately not while smoking.

Al


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:43 am 
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Cocobolo
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Sure, Sylvan has helped us all out. He is very generous with his knowledge and opinions. Even if we don't necessarily want to hear them sometimes, gadflies are necessary and should be welcome as part of the growth process. The nice thing about this forum is the open sharing of ideas and opinions. However, there is a difference between honest criticism and elitism and snobbery. Sylvan, I interpreted your last sentence as taking your post from the former to the latter. That is not conducive to open discussion, but tends to shut it down through intimidation. I don't think that is what a forum dedicated to education and fellowship is about. If I misinterpreted you last comment, then I apologize, but from reading the posts that followed, I wasn’t the only one.





Scott Thompson38766.6560532407

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:01 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Addam I love your response. Now here is a man who does Nitro finishes for a living. Hopefully he has all the business he can stand. I've heard his name many times from many luthiers. His offer to finish the FOLK (friends of Lance Kragenbrink for you newbies) was incredible. Hats off to Addam for taking no offense and for a great response to this thread!

When Martin Luther tacked his 95 Theses to the Whittenburg Door, it was a known practice to argue your convictions in public forum. Kind of like Parliament in the UK.

In this case, the luthiers have spoken, adjustments are made, and at the end of the day, you must "Paddle your own canoe." It's just nice to have friends going down the same river.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:36 am 
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Cocobolo
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My comment was never intended to be elitist or intimidating. All I had tried
to say was that to be as good a guitarmaker as you can be you really have to
learn the finishing process. It is not easy. In my opinion it is far more
difficult than the woodworking. But everyone can do it if they are willing to
try. And that is my point. I don't care if someone farms out their guitars, it
just disappoints me that they are, for whatever reason, unwilling to try.
Learning to do a good finish - be it french polish, varnish, true-oil, or
lacquer is a very rewarding experience and those who do not try are really
missing the satisfaction gained from the learning process. That is what I was
trying to say!

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:06 am 
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Well said Sylvan. I agree, don't be intimidated by the finish. Heck, my 3rd guitar is just about ready to polish and buff for the 3rd time (first two trys sucked). I do agree that time is money and some folks are just better off subbing out the finish to same time and ultimatly money.

So, if a hobby, jump in with both feet, hands, eyes, ears the works. Be safe, don't worry if you don't get it right the first, oh.... 10 times, it will come. When this becomes an issue of production or safety or that you just can't get it right, there are some very good alturnitives to doing it yourself. But just make sure you try it at some point. You'll be glad you did. Nothing ventured, nothing gained (could be knowledge, $, time, "perfection").Rod True38766.7134606481

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:15 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:37 am
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Location: United States
First name: John
Last Name: Mayes
City: Norman
State: OK
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I do agree that everyone should do finish on a guitar or two. Just to
understand the process and the effects it has on the finished product, but
if someone chooses not to I do not think that makes them any less of a
luthier.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:40 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:53 am
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Location: United States
First name: Scott
Last Name: Thompson
Thanks for the response, Sylvan. I agree with you whole heartedly. That last snip at the end just put me off a bit.

I do appreciate your contributions. Reading yours, Mario's and Al Carruth's posts in the archives here and at MIMF are the best education a budding luthier can get.Scott Thompson38766.7797222222

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:45 am 
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Cocobolo
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First name: Scott
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Bruce Dickey, you are one great guy. I'm so glad you are back here with us.I hope to have the honor of meeting you in person some day.

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:06 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Location: United States
   I don't think we need to look down on anyone for an opinion. We all have them. I agree sylvan may think what he thinks and speak his mind.
   No one does everything to make the guitar. we all buy something be it tuners   strings even the lacquer. In the old days violin makers and most trades made thier own glue and finishes.
    agree to disagree and be open to new ideas.that is what an open forum is all about. Sylvan has been building a long time and is allways open to share what he knows.
john hall


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:58 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Thanks Sylvan for taking the time to make things clear, i realize how easy it is to make assumptions on one's intentions when most of the time, the majority of people are acting out of generosity and kindness and caring more than anything else.

Regards

Serge


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:56 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:38 am
Posts: 50
Gentlemen,

     I've stayed away from posting to any forums over the last several months so it didn't look like I was playing favorites, but I had to jump in here for a minute - if for no other reason than to rush to Sylvan's defense... At least a little.

     There are several ways one cam look at this subject, many of which are represented above, but the point of view that "it doesn't matter" bespeaks a very unprofessional attitude about a very important aspect of the craft.

     I agree with Sylvan, in that, to consider yourself "accomplished" you probably should be well versed in all aspects of the craft. Do we who make our living at this sub things out? Of course. For example, I buy pre-slotted and radiused fingerboards these days, but I didn't start doing that until after I had produced hundreds myself, and I only started doing a few small things like this because my production numbers dictated that I HAD to do something to speed the process.

     Bruce Dickey makes the good point that few of us grind our own shell, or make our own tuners either but, where do we stop offering this type of analogy to justify using the labor of others, and putting our own name on the final product? Where does it stop? Are folks who build only highly "serviced" kits "Luthiers"? Do folks who have guitars built overseas with "their name" on them receive the title "Luthier"? Jay Turser or Carlo Robelli anyone?

     Now, there are folks who have allergic reactions to nitro, and there are folks whose shop circumstances do not, in any way, allow them to set up a spraying system, and these are valid reasons for subbing this work out. I just hope that those who simply, "don't like to finish", or, "don't like to make necks", or, "hate sanding", etc., etc., etc. - (and I hear a lot of comments like this - more often that I would hope to) - don't start cutting all kinds of corners, and wind up not learning these processes at all. Jeez guys, it's all part of the deal, and anything you don't learn diminishes your "accomplishment". It is my belief that anything worth learning, is worth learning fully, and thoroughly.

     I don't particularly care what you call yourself, be it "Luthier", or "guitar maker", "hobbiest, "journeyman", or "Grand Master de` Lutherie Par Excelance`", but always ask yourself if you're as good as you WANT to be, and set about the task of learning what you have to learn to achieve the results that you're after. Knowledge is power, experience leads to accomplishment, and the more you know, the fewer corners you'll find yourselves backed into as well.

     And by the way, John Kinnaird, Stradivari did NOT sub out "a lot of his violin building to specialists", in fact, he subbed out NONE of it that my books mention - especially his scrolls! Later in his career, when he was in his 80's and 90's, his sons worked with him, but the quality of the work is much less refined, and easily identfied. My point? This is a spurious "factoid", used to justify an untennable position. True, the "cottage indusrty" of specialized parts makers sprung up long ago in Europe to build lower cost instruments, but in the 17th and 18th centuries, the few who were considered Master makers were called that for very good and specific reasons.

     OK, those whom I've pissed off, and wish to quit ASIA - form a line to the left.

     BillBill Moll38767.4312384259


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